So, Who Did Discover America?

For discussion on international politics and world affairs.
MisterD
Forum Framer
Posts: 197
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:14 pm
Location:
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 37 times
Been thanked: 51 times

Re: So, Who Did Discover America?

Postby MisterD » Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:48 pm

UncleRansom wrote:
Archer wrote:Imagine a gold mine and those mining were after the rocks because they did not know what gold was.


Our American Indian a perfect example. Gold was the standard across the globe from the time of Alexander and Assyrians, Rome and Carthage, the western states, etc. The Indians pitched tents on Last Chance Gulch, one of the largest gold deposits in the world....and had no clue.

So isolated were the North American Indians. They were skilled in a canoe and other small boats....but not seafaring and thus....isolated.

Lewis and Clark encounter depravity, poverty, and starvation. The Indians do have horses....but little else. They rely on buffalo and dog, roots during the winter months.....but many when coming to greet the two Captains.....did so naked to show how poor they were. Given trinkets and friendship medals instead, many went away insulted, back to live on top of tons of gold........in utter poverty.

Imagine indeed.....an Indian Tribe building a ship..crossing an ocean or sea....and realizing their son's rock collection is worth more than the entire ship they're sailing. isolation killed the Indians.


I tend to agree that the North American populations simply didn't achieve much in the way of civilization (defined classically). To say anything more than that is a value judgment, IMO.

Crepitus
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:20 am
Location:
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 2 times

Re: So, Who Did Discover America?

Postby Crepitus » Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:13 pm

Archer wrote:
Crepitus wrote:
Archer wrote:
Actually not, they did not discover anything because they did not have the same concepts of ownership and property as we do. They were here first but that does not mean it was discovered by them.

How about we agree to say nobody discovered America because it was inhabited by migrants that simply walked here?

Columbus discovered a route to get to lands that the Europeans had not found.

How about we don't? Especially since Columbus "discovered" this route completely by accident. If he can discover America by accident (he actually thought this was India) then why can't they?


But he had intent! He found it, even if by accident,..

No matter, America was not discovered because people had already migrated here. They did not discover it because they just followed the food.

dis·cov·er
dəˈskəvər/
verb
1.
find (something or someone) unexpectedly or in the course of a search.
"firemen discovered a body in the debris"
synonyms: find, locate, come across/upon, stumble on, chance on, light on, bring to light, uncover, unearth, turn up; track down
"firemen discovered a body in the debris"

Intent has nothing to do with it. Columbus was following the money, not the food, but it boils down to the same thing.

Crepitus
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:20 am
Location:
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 2 times

Re: So, Who Did Discover America?

Postby Crepitus » Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:15 pm

MisterD wrote:
Crepitus wrote:
Archer wrote:
Actually not, they did not discover anything because they did not have the same concepts of ownership and property as we do. They were here first but that does not mean it was discovered by them.

How about we agree to say nobody discovered America because it was inhabited by migrants that simply walked here?

Columbus discovered a route to get to lands that the Europeans had not found.

How about we don't? Especially since Columbus "discovered" this route completely by accident. If he can discover America by accident (he actually thought this was India) then why can't they?


Because "they" didn't bring the Americas into contact with the rest of the world. Again, discovery does not mean "to first set eyes on".

Bringing America into contact with the rest of the world has nothing to do with discovery. See the definition above.

User avatar
Archer
Forum Framer
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:44 pm
Location:
Gender: Prefer Not to Say
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 54 times

Re: So, Who Did Discover America?

Postby Archer » Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:31 pm

Crepitus wrote:
Archer wrote:
Crepitus wrote:How about we don't? Especially since Columbus "discovered" this route completely by accident. If he can discover America by accident (he actually thought this was India) then why can't they?


But he had intent! He found it, even if by accident,..

No matter, America was not discovered because people had already migrated here. They did not discover it because they just followed the food.

dis·cov·er
dəˈskəvər/
verb
1.
find (something or someone) unexpectedly or in the course of a search.
"firemen discovered a body in the debris"
synonyms: find, locate, come across/upon, stumble on, chance on, light on, bring to light, uncover, unearth, turn up; track down
"firemen discovered a body in the debris"

Intent has nothing to do with it. Columbus was following the money, not the food, but it boils down to the same thing.


They did not find it! it is like saying Blacks discovered Africa, White Europa and Arabic people the ME and Asians, Asia.

Humans migrated they did not discover because they found nothing they had no concept of it.

UncleRansom
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:30 am
Location:
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: So, Who Did Discover America?

Postby UncleRansom » Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:50 am

Crepitus wrote:Intent has nothing to do with it. Columbus was following the money, not the food, but it boils down to the same thing.


Indeed. Upon Columbus' return, the entire world followed the money and empire. Columbus' report shakes the civilized world. His return and report results in the Pope's 'bull decree', the Treaty of Tordesillas, that divides the new world between the two superpowers.

It is the reason Columbus is given credit for discovery in my view. Vikings, Indians, Aztecs, I'm sure cultures previous to Chris discovered into even North America, but they had less impact. Columbus for example the reason Brazil speaks Portuguese, Spain and Portugal 'splitting' the world in two. Colonization endeavors then ignite.

MisterD
Forum Framer
Posts: 197
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:14 pm
Location:
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 37 times
Been thanked: 51 times

Re: So, Who Did Discover America?

Postby MisterD » Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:30 am

Crepitus wrote:
MisterD wrote:
Crepitus wrote:How about we don't? Especially since Columbus "discovered" this route completely by accident. If he can discover America by accident (he actually thought this was India) then why can't they?


Because "they" didn't bring the Americas into contact with the rest of the world. Again, discovery does not mean "to first set eyes on".

Bringing America into contact with the rest of the world has nothing to do with discovery. See the definition above.


Dear God...

Crepitus, to discover means to make something known, to reveal the existence of etc. That's what Columbus did. He brought the New World to the attention of the Old. That is what is meant by discovery.

MisterD
Forum Framer
Posts: 197
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:14 pm
Location:
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 37 times
Been thanked: 51 times

Re: So, Who Did Discover America?

Postby MisterD » Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:31 am

UncleRansom wrote:
Crepitus wrote:Intent has nothing to do with it. Columbus was following the money, not the food, but it boils down to the same thing.


Indeed. Upon Columbus' return, the entire world followed the money and empire. Columbus' report shakes the civilized world. His return and report results in the Pope's 'bull decree', the Treaty of Tordesillas, that divides the new world between the two superpowers.

It is the reason Columbus is given credit for discovery in my view. Vikings, Indians, Aztecs, I'm sure cultures previous to Chris discovered into even North America, but they had less impact. Columbus for example the reason Brazil speaks Portuguese, Spain and Portugal 'splitting' the world in two. Colonization endeavors then ignite.


As a matter of Old and New World contact they had no impact at all. You're not merely stating your view. You're stating a fact. That is the reason Columbus is credited with the discovery of America. Columbus' voyages changed the entire world.

User avatar
Archer
Forum Framer
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:44 pm
Location:
Gender: Prefer Not to Say
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 54 times

Re: So, Who Did Discover America?

Postby Archer » Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:38 am

I think we can all agree on the facts presented but our disagreement is about how we feel as it relates to what a discovery is.

User avatar
Peter1469
Forum Framer
Posts: 948
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:19 pm
Location: NOVA
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 270 times
Been thanked: 168 times

Re: So, Who Did Discover America?

Postby Peter1469 » Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:30 am

Archer wrote:I think we can all agree on the facts presented but our disagreement is about how we feel as it relates to what a discovery is.


That is what I was going to mention.

MisterD
Forum Framer
Posts: 197
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:14 pm
Location:
Gender: Male
Has thanked: 37 times
Been thanked: 51 times

Re: So, Who Did Discover America?

Postby MisterD » Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:02 pm

Archer wrote:I think we can all agree on the facts presented but our disagreement is about how we feel as it relates to what a discovery is.


But what we think of as discovery is irrelevant. It's a question of why Columbus is said to have discovered the Americas. That's not really open to question.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest